Dr. M.: I must be careful in answering your question. Change and stability are opposites, they cannot coexist. As long as there is stability there is no change. When there is change the situation is obviously unstable.

Us: But what of the talks on a new constitution?

Dr. M.: The new constitution is a joke. It gives coloreds and Indians a trivial part in Afrikaaner government and totally ignores the African. They expect to "repatriate" us to our homelands. They strip us of our citizenship and tell us we are now members of some tribal homeland even though we were both here in Soweto. Some of us have never even been to these homelands.

Moreover, these homelands are scattered dots on the map, totally unviable as political or economic units. Indeed if they had any value at all the white man would not surrender these lands. If they were viable economic units the black man would work there rather than supply South Africa with cheap migrant labor. This country has a migrant labor force only because the government chooses to define them as such.

Us: Realistically, can there be anything but violent change?

Dr. M.: Look, I've told you before, change cannot come as long as there is stability, but we don't want violent change.

Us: Can whites play any role in the struggle?

Dr. M.: The situation in South Africa is one of conflict between white and black. That is the role of the white man in our struggle.

Us: So there is nothing whites can do to be part of the struggle for equal rights in South Africa?

Dr. M.: We are in confrontation. Even the liberal whites in this country are not really interested in the sort of change we want. Look, if you scratch a liberal you'll find a conservative. Some talk and talk to ease their conscience, and then they go back to their factories where they pay the black man one third of what they pay the white man.

Us: Haven't there been some changes? Isn't it a fact that blacks may now own their homes in Soweto, rather than lease them from the government?

K: That is another of the great myths. First of all this so called ownership is a 99 year lease. But more importantly, since the enactment of this law over two years ago, only one lease has in fact been granted.

Us: If the "change" comes...

Dr. M.: When the change comes...

Us: When the change comes, can it be anything but a communist takeover?