K: Yes, they want us all to believe that. It's rubbish. The government spends more money on maintaining tribal separation than it does on education. They divide us according to tribes even in the black ghetto. For example, black students seeking tertiary education must go to a tribal university.

Dr. M.: There is no difference to us. We are all opposed to these policies. The urban blacks feel the discrimination more than the rural blacks. The government can encourage division but it won't work.

Us: What about the other race groups in the country? Is there co-operation between yourselves and the coloreds and Indians?

K: This is a difficult area. The government has been very clever and at first successful. They gave the coloreds more than the Indians and the Indians more than the Africans.

Dr. M.: Everyone wipes his feet on the African.

K: So the coloreds like to associate themselves with the white man. They stress their white side more than their black ancestry. But this is rapidly changing. During the riots in Soweto and those in Capetown, the coloreds marched with the Africans against the Afrikaaner.

Dr. M.: The situation is changing because coloreds marry Africans and are "reclassified" downwards to African. The situation with the Indian population is different.

K: The Indian makes money, sends it to England and waits to get out of the country. They are non political.

Dr. M.: But colored, Indian, that's not the point. They are nothing. Without them we the Africans are twenty million strong. One can understand the coloreds and Indians for wanting a little better material life and psychological advantage of not being a "kaffir." They won't make a difference.

Us: Having no political power, how can you change this country?

Dr. M.: We must refuse to collaborate in our own oppression. that is the only solution.

K: There will be aid from our northern borders.

Us: The N.P. is saying that "petty apartheid" is dead or dying, and that blacks will be given more economic opportunities. Is that a step in the right direction?

Dr. M.: There is no such thing as "petty apartheid" to a black man. It is far too late for us to accept anything but full and equal rights in our country.

Us: Can change be achieved within the framework of the Republic?