White: I think the possibility for a democratic solution still exists. I think that one of the more remarkable things is how the Left has matured over the last two and a half years. I think they're a lot more politically sophisticated than they were. They now realize that standard superficial Marxist analysis does not really apply to this country. There are important elements here than would wholeheartedly back a solution that retained pluralism. This is why a negotiated solution is so important. Until you have a negotiated solution, then the revolutionaries will owe something to the politicians, and politicians, by their very nature, require pluralism to be politicians.

Crimson: Given this analysis, quite specifically, if you were making U.S. policy for El Salvador, what steps would you have our government take?

White: Force the disloyal right to negotiate. That's the only thing you can do. If they did that, the chances are that you would have a coup within the military within a very short time. A pro-democratic coup.

One of the tragic things that's happened--not so much to them but to us--is that the Reagan Administration uses phrases to hide realities that are uncovering now. When you talk about elections and democracy, the people in Central America always put out enough votes to return the right wing to power. Now, theidea that you're talking about bringing democracy to El Salvador through elections is mindless. Because the crisis in El Salvador is not a constitutional crisis, it is not going to be solved by constitutional means. Elections are not a device to transport a society from one stage to another. After you agree on the bases of a society, then you can pick the team that you want to lead.

Crimson: If we could guarantee fair elections tomorrow, would the Sandinistas stand to hold power in Nicaragua in a fair election?

Karl: Tomorrow? Yes, I think that it's very hard. There is still no organized, effective alternative inside Nicaragua or outside Nicaragua to the Sandinistas.

Crimson: Do you think that the Sandinistas have the intention of seeking truly democratic elections. Do you think that's possible in Nicaragua, or are they talking about elections to placate the United States and the European support that they have?

Karl: I don't really know the answer to that I would say certainly that they didn't show an enormous democratic vocation right after the revolution I don't know what kind of project they have in mind what struck me most in Nicaragua is that, in the situation they are now in, it's very difficult to have any kind of political or economic long-term plan.

White: I think that there is, leane Kirk patrick notwithstanding, room for pluralistic development inside Nicaragua because no matter how harshly you judge Nicaragua. It is not a major offender against human rights There's nobody afraid to stand up and talk about how bad the Sandinistas are I would think that, just as in Mexico, you might evolve a Sandinista party, with various wings and tendencies within it You have this pluralism panning out, and then it develops along its own way. I don't see any evidence to suggest that the Sandinistas are wedded to the idea of suppressing everyone who disagrees with them.

Crimson: What potential is there in Guatemala for more democratic government and him in U.S. policy now affecting Guatemala'.

White: Well. I think the revolution is endemic to Guatemala and has been since 1954 because what you have is repression and greed Guatemalan leaders are so completely dedicted to the maintenance of an unjust system It's just going to be a matter of time--there's no way that this government can last for very long But it will last in effect for as long as we continue to work with it.

Karl: I think another point in all this is that some thing that is new in Guatemala is the number of refugees. It's not new to have a refugee problem in Guatemala, but the result is the exportation of repression, to Mexico. It you go riding along the Mexican-Guatemalan border, you see enormous numbers of Guatemalan Indians, who become a problem between Guatemala and Mexico. They create a new level of tensions between Mexico and Guatemala. The other thing that they do is that they create new and important problems within the Mexican political system.

Crimson: Is there a role for some of the regional nations i.e., the Contradora group, and if there is, what would that role be in bringing about peace'

Karl: Yes there's a role. I think an important one I will say that one thing that has impressed me about the Contradora group, with all its limitations, is that it has managed to come up with some concrete suggestions. It has been a kind of break on a march towards more and more military involvement, and has not resolved anything, but at least it's slowed down the march of events. It has taken the heat off each individual country. It's no longer just the Mexicans, in a sense, criticizing U.S. policy in the region, but they've spread the risk by having other countries involved So in those senses, yes, I think it's useful. I think they've played an important role, and I think that we should take them much more seriously than we have.

White: The Contradora group largely plays the role of combining a convenient mechanism for the Reagan Administration not to negotiate directly with Nicaragua, or directly with Salvadoran revolutionaries. At the same time, we refuse to back the Contradoras in any way and therefore we are using the Contradoras as a shill to keep the appearance of negotiation going while at the same time, we drive a militaristic policy forward, and that. I told you, is going to build up deep resentments among the presidents and the foreign ministers and others who made it their commitment to Salvador.