Q: I believe that was in the Transvaal.
A: Yes, I read about it, but if it's coloured people, it's not in my province. I can tell you that I don't take the view that it is a good and healthy thing to move people against their will.
Q: We have spoken to many blacks in South Africa and many of them say that outside coercion and criticism are in fact the only catalysts for change in South Africa.
A: Well I would disagree with that. In my own experience, I'm not saying that outside pressures and coercion are not factors or catalysts for change. Obviously at least to some extent, they are and in some cases they may be the only catalysts. In my experience, without a shadow of a doubt, those outside pressures tend to slow up the change process considerably. That is one of the most difficult and tragic things I've experienced as a minister in this country. Take sport for instance. I still think that if there had been better understanding in the outside world the process of change in sports would have been tremendously facilitated. And other changes, going well beyond sport would have occurred. When world support for our desegregation process in sports was not forthcoming, and the pressures on us still continued, the right put out their tongues and said "I told you so." It was all in vain. So as I said it can slow up the process and coercion becomes counter-productive. A white right backlash can be very strong and put things back considerably.
Q: Can the west play any role at all in helping solve the racial problems facing South Africa?
A: Yes, they can help by understanding and taking an interest, an enlightened interest in South Africa. I think more understanding honestly would make a big difference. People are only people and when they are praised and when they feel their efforts are worthwhile and being appreciated, then it surely makes it easier to change. It enhances the process. When they're being hammered at all the time it makes them more resistant to change. Think of the American situation in the last 15 to 20 years and I think you'll appreciate that this is not a situation that can be rectified over night. So really it's a combination of factors which could make the difference. To think that only one approach, one set of factors, i.e. coercion and pressure and boycotts can do the trick, well that's very superficial and incorrect.
This is the first of two interviews conducted by Gerald J. Sanders and Ian Brookshire, students at the University of Texas Law School. Next week: interviews with Dr. Motlana, chairman of the Soweto Committee of Ten, and Judge Marais, an Afrikaaner politician who resigned from the National Party.