What they want is to minimize unrest. Surely every government wants that. And therefore, their policy has to be read in this light. And they want to maximize infiltration of foreign capital, especially American, but more especially Greek-American capital. In fact, Karamanlis, in an unusual moment of brilliance, called this dictatorship a Greek-American dictatorship. And I think that this really is the better reason, and that this is really that kind of operation, it's literally a sellout. And I prefer to think of it this way.

There is no Greek industrialist class, there is no Greek capital, that's an unreal thing. In Italy there is, there's such a thing as an Italian capitalist class. The Greek capitalist class is parasitic, it's dependent upon capital, and this is very fundamental. Now, when you talk about the middle class, the shopkeeper, of course it's always conservative, it is everywhere, and that's not different in Greece, and the conservative element, this is the only element from which, I suppose, some support could have been had for this regime. But, as a matter of fact, I think that they sort of lived with the regime at first, in expectation that it was temporary, passing. I think that the domination of the Pappas-Niarchos-Onassis sort of interests is turning them off. They're things that are unbelievable, talking about that middle class. That's where Tsoukalas is wrong.

Let me give you an example, one quiet, lively example. I don't know if you know Greece, but there is this coastline, from Athens to Sunium, on this beautiful, beautiful road that runs right next to it. And then there are anumber of settlements; bank employees, XYZ employees, have managed to form co-operatives, and have established little homes right through that region. So the Greek government pulls out, the junta pulls out, some kind of arrangement with the Turks. Very old, dead, nobody knew about it, about the sale of those lands to the Greek government. And they said, "All of this area belong to us. We will give you this compensation, we're going to raze you to the ground, and we're going to bring some big outfits from abroad to turn this into a great tourist city." Now this is the middle class guys that are being expropriated. What I'm prepared to say is that the middle class took a stance of "let's wait and see," but from this to infer that this regime is the petit bourgeois regime, that's a big mistake. No, this regime is an American regime. What's happening in the long pull is absolutely devastating.

What sort of government do you envision for post-coup Greece?

Our new republic has a touch of Yugoslavia in it. We believe in a straight socialist solution in Greece. We expect by June to have this plan finalized. And I don't mean social-democratic. I mean socialist. Property rights will not be given any direct privilege, but only in the sense that they serve the people. The burden of proof will be on property, instead of the other way around.

We envision a Greece of eleven districts, each of which will be self-governing, except in overall socioeconomic planning and common self-defense. We are thinking of a decentralized army and are working very hard on the concept. No central police, by the way. Police will be strictly regional and municipal. Arms there will be mostly for guerrilla arms, for people in the 20-to-40-year range, men and women both. We will place emphasis on a permanent internal defense plan in which no enemy will be forbidden to enter Greece. He will find no tanks or air strikes. The fighting will take place within the country.

We expect to give meaning and substance to the concept of participatory democracy. It will be basically a socialist motif, except that not all private property will be banned.

It was said long ago by the Sulzbergers and other that if allowed, I would take Greece out of NATO, and I would throw the king out, that I was a socialist. Well, at the time, I was not. I was a progressive gentleman, but not in that sense. At this point, I'm quite prepared to do all those nasty things. They've acted in a way that would produce all this. But there's no way of getting back to Greece right now. The fight will be long and hard.