With the passing of time, I myself have the feeling that a most important role must have been played by the Pentagon, both the intelligence and the military proper, that it was not exclusively a CIA operation. And I have a very strong suspicion that the naval arm of the Pentagon, with headquarters more or less in Naples, played a very important role. Admiral Horatio Rivero was the American Admiral in charge of the southeast wing of NATO. He must have played an important role. The other fact which is of some interest-but this fact I don't know directly except through junta sources-a defector from the junta told us this-that Cyrus Vance was the man that sold the coup to the doubters in Washington. "It's our coup" sort of thing, you know, he relaxed people, that this was "our coup." Now this information I have from a source that I can never bring out publicly, but I have this information. And I think that this gives you a feeling at least of the extent to which there was participation in the beginning, in the conception and execution of the coup.

BUT EVER since then, of course, the evidence has piled up overwhelmingly that the Pentagon considers Greece at this point to be just one of its fortresses and a very important fortress. If you were to pursue, to follow the Greek newspapers, youwould see that hardly a week passes by that a significant American general does not visit Greece, to not only consult with the dictators, but also to be photographed with them. And the limit has been reached, I think, last Christmas-New Year's, in fact, in Greece they celebrate New Year's more than they celebrate Christmas. But the children of the American personnel were gathered to sing the Christmas carols to Papadopoulos. They came to his office. There's a picture of the children of the American embassy personnel singing Christmas carols to Papadopoulos. I mean, they've gone the limit, in bad taste among other things.

There is a fantastic source of information, and it's contained in the hearings this last June before the Security Subcommittee of the Foreign Relations Committee of the Senate. It's actually in print. And it's Fulbright and Symington grilling Administration personnel and other groups. That is spectacular. Of course much of it has been censored out. But what comes out is that the U.S. has seven major military installations in Greece, that in fact the Administration personnel does not deny that the coup was American. Fulbright puts the question: "They say you guys did it; did you or didn't you?" "Sir, I do not know." This kind of thing. "Is there somebody that knows?" "Yes sir, there's somebody that knows." "Who is that man?" "I don't know, sir," "Are you supposed not to tell me?" "That's right, sir." That sort of thing goes on all day.

It's very obvious that Greece has been turned into a major bastion, staging area, in fact, for the American penetration of the Middle East and Africa and so forth. It's very clear. As time goes on, one can see, in fact, even that the colonels are being used by the U.S. for contact in the African continent. There is a mystique in North Africa of military coups, very unfortunate but there is a mystique. And this has been exploited by these characters, by the U. S. military.

THE COLONELS, of course, are merely busboys for the Pentagon, literally busboys. Only Brazil is the proper comparison, or South Korea, something like that. That's the proper comparison. There's nothing nationalistic about this regime, nothing at all. It's a sellout. This particular regime, you see, may be used to develop relationships with colonels in North Africa to make infiltration also on other fronts, in other lands. So, it seems to me, then, that the resumption of military aid-you can talk forever about that.

First of all, it's not fit to talk about resumption, it never ended. Of course, the Nixon administration just plainly lied to Congress. Not only did they break the embargo in August '68, without letting anyone know, but beyond that they used the escape valve of the Surplus Weapons Act, and they gave a hundred million dollars worth of surplus weapons to Greece under that act, over which the Congress has nothing to say.

They've been playing this kind of absolutely cheap game, telling one story and doing something else, in the Orwellian context of this Administration. But now, of course, the aid and the support is open and clear and unlimited.

Just a brief question that has an interesting Harvard sidelight. Do you think that Henry Kissinger has had very much to do with any of this?

Since he's been in office you mean? Undoubtedly he has. I have very little information directly, except one or two instances he has talked about to some journalists and some Greek political men in Washington. He seems to be quite aware of the problem, quite conscious of it, but this is very much in style for Henry Kissinger. I think that those who were concerned over W. W. Rostow probably have no sense of relief that this man is in his place.

I think Kissinger is the apotheosis of the new amoral technocrat who serves the empire with all the forces at his disposal. And he, unfortunately more than Rostow, is in the deadly climate of the scenarios, of the Herman Kahn-type scenarios. If one reads back a little bit, if one looks back at early interviews six years ago, seven years ago, with Kissinger, one is aware of the fact that he must be the author and the architect of the invasions in Southeast Asia and the expansion of the Indochina War. It's part of his faith that you must keep the enemy guessing as to your next move, you must show the enemy you're prepared to take risks, and that you're prepared to escalate. Of course this improves your bargaining position, and you may be able to settle on terms more acceptable to you. So I think the Greek story must be entirely within his purview.

After all, he is also sort of a specialist on matters European. And Kissinger does know the Greek story. He has visited Greece. I must try to remember now, I think it probably is '62 or '63, he was there, and I met him there. He met my father as well. He's very knowledgeable on the Greek story, and I have no doubt that he's very much involved, subject to one limitation-Greece is not too big a problem for him to be spending too many hours of his day on it. But to the extent that any policy has to be decided on, I'm sure that Kissinger is decisive.

When talking about the military establishment of the U.S., one should not imagine that they all wear epaulets. I mean, I think that the civilian security manager, empire manager, is probably as dangerous if not more dangerous than the man with the uniform. So it's the Rostows and the Kahns and the Hudson Institutes and the Kissingers that are very much behind the cynical use of power, as cynical as any of the Nazis ever dreamt of being.