That's the student movement. I think what's unique about the United States- different from other countries in the past- is not the fact that everybody's willing to accept it if we win; that's normal. But rather it's things like the student movement, which is the really organized mass segment of the population against the war. There have been anti-imperialist movements in the past but they've been pretty restricted. That's why it would be a great tragedy if the student movement lapses into apathy. Especially when the Saigon student movement really needs support desperately. Because there might be a terrific repression in Saigon any time now and if the American student movement doesn't respond to that it would really be a tragedy.

I've felt ever since 1968 that the student movement was wasting a lot of effort and making an error of judgment and analysis as well in turning its attention toward universities, which I don't think are all that important.

That kind of movement is easily crushed and has to some extent been crushed. The universities become like any other institutions in society- they protect themselves through the police and so on, which everybody else does automatically.

It's not surprising. Why did the student movement demonstrate against Columbia and not against General Motors? As soon as you answer that question, it's obvious why they could crush it.

As soon as the universities become like General Motors, that's the end of that. At General Motors you can't demonstrate on the premises, because they'll just call out the National Guard and kill you and something like that. It took the universities about a year or two to use the force of the state to protect themselves and to get rid of people who make trouble. But, that was bound to happen.

Now I think things have to turn toward the issue of the war itself, not peripheral institutions like the University.

Do you really think there's a chance that anything we can do can persuade the government to stop the war?

That's a question that's put all the time. But I think its really the wrong question to ask. It's not just a two state affair, in which you either stop the war or the war goes on. There are a lot of degrees.

I think the student movement has been quite successful in constraining the war to some extent. It's hard to say that, considering the scale, but they haven't used nuclear weapons, they haven't wiped out North Vietnam, they haven't bombed China yet.

I think just Cambodia alone is an example of the effectiveness of the student movement. I'm sure they had much bigger plans for a large-scale invasion and a permanent occupation. Instead, they're down to just sending the Saigon air force and carrying out an aerial bombardment, which is not very nice but it's better than it might have been. And I think this kind of pressure can win partial victories.