A former member of South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC), the organization charged with investigation crimes committed under apartheid, spoke about her work before a packed house at the Bunting Institute last night.

Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela, a peace fellow of the Institute, told a crowd of about 150 chilling stories of her interviews with both the victims and perpetrators of apartheid.

"Their world was my world," she said of the victims. "Familiar faces, familiar families...young people full of idealism, wanting to change history."

Rita Nakashima Brock, director of the Bunting Institute, introduced Gobodo-Madikizela, praising her "unwavering commitment to justice."

"Her work has worldwide implications," Brock said.

She focused her talk last night on her interviews with Eugene de Kock, a perpetrator who earned the nickname of "Prime Evil" and is currently serving 212 years in prison, in addition to two life sentences.

"He smiled in a way I thought looked like a shy boy's smile," Gobodo-Madikizela said, recalling her first meeting with de Kock.

"As he sat down I could hear the rattling of his leg chains," she said. "There was something disturbing about having to interview him in chains."

Gobodo-Madikizela began her talk with a shorthistory of events that led to the TRC's creationin December 1995. Background information isnecessary, she said, "to give a clearunderstanding of the struggle of apartheid inSouth Africa."

According to Gobodo-Madikizela, the TRC wascreated to investigate crimes committed between1960 and 1994. It has heard testimony from over21,000 victims of apartheid.

Gobodo-Madikizelaserved on the TRC's Human Rights ViolationsCommittee for two years, interviewing perpetratorsof apartheid who were applying to the commissionfor amnesty.

Her stories of early interviews with de Kockelicited gasps from the audience.

"As he started to speak, his hand trembled, andhe became visibly distressed," she recalled. "Witha breaking voice he said, 'I wish I could do much more than `I'm sorry.' I wish there was a way of bringing their bodies back alive.""

Gobodo-Madikizela said it is important ininterviews to recognize the humanity ofperpetrators, but said she finds it difficult todo at times. When she discovered that she shared abirthday with perpetrator she was interviewing,"It was very creepy. I just couldn't tell him,`Wow! We have the same birthday.'"

She said she went through this process with deKock as well. During one interview, they spoke oftheir families.

"He talked about his two sons, one of which isthe same age of my son," Gobodo-Madikizela said."Such connections made him feel part of the humanworld."

A clinical psychologist, Gobodo-Madikizelaanalyzed the perpetrators in terms of "splitting"and projection of their fears and guilt ontoothers.

"Typically the perpetrators blame the victimfor the atrocities they committed," she said.

After the lecture, Gobodo-Madikizela fended offquestions about the effectiveness of the TRC. Thecommittee was the product of a compromise betweenofficials who advocated the criminal courts andthose who believed the justice system was tooinfluenced by apartheid.

"Because it is a compromise, it is notperfect," she said. "I am convinced that for many,many victims, this was a better way."

Others commented on the powerful content of herspeech.

"I found your presentation grueling and verymoving," one attendee said.CrimsonChristopher A. AmarTALKING ABOUT TRUTH: PUMLAGOBODO-MADIKIZELA, a member of South Africa'sTruth and Reconciliation Commission, speaks at theBunting Institute last night.